Okay. The second man Christ is from heaven as is the earthy Adam so also are those who are earthy and as is the heavenly Christ so also are those who are heavenly. So it must be used in some other way. Trent, whenever you begin, Ill click the five minute timer. Though a mere chip-shot, from 32 yards, the three-pointer enabled . Can you repeat the question real quick? And Steve, stick around because Ive got one final question for both of you, but I wanted to say two things before I do that. What about after the apostolic age? The danger of submitting to this fallible authority extends to submitting to their authority of their unbiblical view of salvation of infusion of grace through the sacraments, which also contradicts Scripture, which teaches justification by imputation of grace by faith alone. Dr. Steven A. Christie MD Radiology General Radiology Kendall, FL Male 21+ Yrs Experience English 7500 SW 87th Ave, Kendall, FL Overview Location & Contact Education & Experience Overview. When Jesus mother and brothers approach him later in verse 31, Jesus contrasts his biological brothers who dishonored him with his disciples, who were his spiritual brothers, who did the will of God. This is also the view of St. John Chrysostom as late as the fifth century, venerated as a doctor of the church of Roman Catholicism, who also believed Mary thought Jesus had gone mad. First, this debate is not about whether the Bible teaches the Marian Dogmas or even if the evidence shows that theyre true. Thank you. My first book is about not really of us, why do children of Christian parents abandon the faith? We see this in Zechariah 12:10, where it talks about, They look on him who theyve pierced. No, Bauckham talks about this in his article that in some context, Jesus would be referred to as the son of Joseph, especially among those who were not familiar with his family life in Nazareth. It would be an evidence chip, if you will, for it that we have to balance with other evidences. Hallow.com/mattfred, click the link in the description below. Thats because they quoted primarily from the Septuagint, or the Greek Old Testament. Heres a question that I have that Id be interested in both of you answering. Okay, I get that. One of these would be Psalm 69, where it says of the Messiah, I have become a stranger to my brethren, an alien to my mothers sons. The messianic Psalms are applied to Jesus, but not in literal ways. Originally from Aberdeen ,now residing in Edinburgh. So that would mean if youre the firstborn, that youre going to have other children. And I truly believe that because youre a nice guy. When the New Testament writers wish to convey female non-sibling relatives, such as Elizabeth and Mary, they chose other Greek words, such as [foreign language 00:01:39] or [foreign language 00:01:39] So also, Luke 14:12 and 21:16, where the evangelist uses different Greek words to distinguish relatives from brothers. But its still the first movie. But there are many problems with this speculative argument. First, ancient Jews kept their books in a series of scrolls and not in a single book, so its anachronistic to say this refers to the table contents in a book. "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be" - Psalm 139: 13,16 I always wanted to have five kids, but I met and married my The wrongs I have done are not hidden from me.. The dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary contradicts scripture in the following ways. In fact, the authors of these texts, such as Sirach, described writing down Gods wisdom to indicate they were writing Scripture, which wouldnt make sense if they thought the canon was closed. As far as Jesus brothers and sisters, I probably have studied that more than anything else and that would probably be the hardest for me to accept or maybe Mary being sinless because I mean, Trent, you got a seven year old, its like is as good as a kid as he is based on who his parents are. The connection of apologetics with evangelism is best summarized by Oxford theologian Alister E. McGrath: " They would be sons from another marriage. I just think, Well, yeah, Id also want to make my foster father perfect. Not Really Of Us: Why Do Children of Christian Parents Abandon the Faith? In Isaiah 7:16 it talks about a time before a child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. If Mary kept the law, she could not be made righteous since righteousness does not come from keeping the law, but through Christs death. Use features like bookmarks, note taking and highlighting while reading WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestant Old Testament Canon. Marys special, unique status and her being mother of God is something throughout the fathers, definitely. Gary Habermas: The Minimal Facts Approach To The Resurrection (June, 2013) Video Link . Okay. The Bible doesnt say that apostles are baptized, but it certainly seems quite fitting that they would be given everything else. Lets see here. Fair enough, Steve shaking his head no, but well leave it at that for now. All right. So here, Mary can be talking about salvation from threats in this life, not sin. Had Adam not sinned he would be alive today, as well as Mary had she not inherited Adam sin nature, a view shared by Catholic Answers and the Second Council of Orange. Steve said that if Mary and Joseph had remained virgins, they would violate late St. Pauls teaching about marriage in First Corinthians Seven. To say here Richard [Bachum 00:28:46], for example, who rejects, a Protestant scholar who rejects the Perpetual Virginity of Mary says, Its strange Jesus is called the son of Mary in Mark 6:3, rather than the son of Joseph. But that would make sense if Jesus had been born of Josephs second wife, Mary. This dogma was defined by Pope Pius the ninth, but not ex cathedra in 1854 and is not shared by the Eastern Orthodox, despite not skisming with the West until the 11th century demonstrating that this was a much later development foreign to the New Testament writers and the early church. Steve Jordahl, Billy Davis. So final question I have for each of you, well start with Steve and then Trent. The relevance would be that you are using it. I didnt bring up [Greek 00:52:36]. And I think one way that makes sense would be if Joseph had been previously married. We now are going to have four minute rebuttals. (Hebrews 11:35b, 2 Maccabees 6,7), Is the Apocrypha or Deutero-Canonical Books Part of the Bible? Do Protestants Have the Correct Old Testament Canon Trent Horn Vs Steve Christie Debate, The Canon of Scripture Debate Part 1 Gary Michuta (Catholic) vs. Steve Christie (Protestant), Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller with Steve Christie. [foreign language 00:26:34] was also used in literature that existed at roughly the same time period as the New Testament. This is an example called eisegesis of Scripture. What the church teaches is that infallibility does not cover preambles or evidences that are used to formulate a doctrine. Like for example, how does one reconcile the following statements, I am the way, the truth, and the life, from our blessed Lord in John 14:6 and Hail holy queen, mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope, emphasis on both claiming to be our life? Kelly said, for the great majority of the early Church Fathers, the deuterocanonical writings ranked as Scripture in the fullest sense (Early Christian Doctrines, 55). So then the word adelphos could also apply in this case to describe people that they have the same adoptive father, Joseph, but different mothers, Josephs first wife and his second wife. Many of you know I now have a Catholic Lo-Fi channel. There is no exception there. But let me get to that point about death though. Give me a second here. So for an ancient Greek speaking person, why would adelphe have a narrower semantic range than adelphos when the only difference here is the gender? Just a weak reference to Mark chapter three. Or Enoch and Elijah who never died because they were assumed alive into heaven. What you ended up finding also from this, as well as other dogmas, when you go back to it, you find a lot of these dogmas originating in apocalyptic literature. His kicking shoe from that game is displayed in the Pro Football Hall of Fame in Canton. I have two chapters on it in my book, The Case for Catholicism. Well, according to Genesis chapter or in Genesis, it says in that day, you will surely die. It has to be interpreted charitably, or its possible there might be an error in a magisterial statement recounting history, but that doesnt apply the charism to the doctrine itself. Sean McDowell, Ph.D. is a professor of Christian Apologetics at Biola University, a best-selling author of over 18 books, an internationally recognized speaker, and a part-time high school teacher. And then it says, when you refer to adelphe, when you look that up, it only has two meanings. The earliest source sharing in this view that she died first is from the Dormition. Dr. Steven Christie, MD is a Diagnostic Radiology Specialist in Miami, FL and has over 28 years of experience in the medical field. No, he was free from sin, but he still had a mortal human nature that could be subject to death. So I would actually disagree with Cardinal Newman to be deep into history as deceased to be Protestant. I addressed this a little bit during the debates of the specific Greek word [inaudible 01:21:19], which is translate full of grace or highly favored, even Jimmy Akin from Catholic answers that. Thank you very much, Trent. He was content to let go and die a natural death. Just for fun, I mean, I would probably enjoy listening to Ignatius. Its [inaudible 01:14:35]. Id have to respond individually. Now, does the Bible teach that everyone has sinned? I run morning podcasts here on locals. St. Jerome, who was skeptical of the manuscript history behind these books, even tells us that at the Council of Nicaea the deuterocanonical work of Judith was considered part of the canon of Scripture. 9035 SW 72nd St Ste 102 Miami, FL 33173. Honestly, Id have to think about it. For example, Strongs 80, are you aware that it describes adelphos, it says a brother, a member of the same religious community, a fellow Christian. You got five minutes, right? In fact, in the early church, it would be idolatry. 23:2), some of whom were not Pharisees. I would argue that the dogmas are not explicitly mentioned in Scripture and they do not affect salvation. I agree that it is used predominantly of Jesus, talking about salvation from sin, but I would say read the context. Yep. Since Christians are not bound to accept their ideas about what Scripture meant regarding the messiah or the need to follow the Mosaic law, we arent bound to follow what they considered to be the boundaries of the canon, which was disputed even among the Pharisees. Sure. The same in any intellectual study. It is not mentioned in any book of the Bible, protocanonical or deuterocanonical, nor in any ancient nonbiblical witnesses such as Josephus or Philo. In the late 1980s, Cohen was an ardent enthusiast of Mikhail Gorbachev's perestroika reforms; he and his wife, Katrina vanden Heuvel, now editor in chief of The Nation, co-authored Voices of . In 2014, Christie was diagnosed with colorectal cancer. One of them is about the false typologies that are used by contemporary Catholic apologists in order to justify Mary being the new ark, and I explain Dont go to it now. Singing professionally for over 30 years, Steve Christie is a seasoned performer. Thats what I believe. Even if you have to have some things in essential form, I think he would have to pick someone pretty late in church history, at least over a thousand or 1500 years or 1800 years. And the same is true for Mary. Well, it is an argument that actually I hear from a lot of contemporary Catholic apologists. With the Bills, he would become one of the game's top kickers. By providing an accessible and growing repository of teaching materials, as well as providing a means of networking within the apologetics community, ourvisionis to be a significant educational resource for churches, campus groups, and Christians around the world. So the idea that its fitting that Mary be immaculately conceived, it pushes the dial a little, but its by no means a proof. Like infant baptism, the cessation of charismatic gifts, for example. Because if you look in Strongs Greek Exhaustive Concordance and how it is used in the New Testament, which is what the debate is about not extra biblical work, it is used consistently and only to describe biological siblings. After Marys days of purification were completed in Luke two, she made burnt and sin offerings, which according to Leviticus 12 was required of mothers to make atonement or to cover their sins, which Mary would not need to do if she were immaculately conceived. Trent had mentioned about Elijah and Enoch being assumed to heaven. When Matthew 1:25 writes, Joseph kept Mary a virgin until she gave birth to a son, the specific Greek words [foreign language 00:02:06] when translated until, is used consistently in the New Testament to refer to a change in condition. And the other issue is a fact, is that even though a Pope would not be allowed to declare something that goes against what the magisterium teaches and the magisterium I doubt would ever teach about worshiping Mary, whats interesting is that according to Lumen Gentium, it says that even when the Pope is not speaking ex cathedral, you must actually listen to what the Pope says. Just like that Scripture includes things within it that are not necessarily scientifically accurate, scriptures without error. [W]e do not know the extent of his canon. The second best result is Steven Luke Christie age 40s in New Hyde Park, NY in the Garden City Park neighborhood. Agreed. I have also appeared several But when the Bible talks about a firmament, that talks about an ancient, incorrect view of the heavens. See Genesis 35:23, Deuteronomy 21:15, Joshua 6:26, 1 Chronicles 3:1, and Hebrews 11:28, where firstborn is also used this way. Contrary to what Steve said this has been infallibly defined, though before the ex cathedra statements of the First Vatican Counsel. Do you? I think a lot of people have this question, both Catholics and Protestants. So then if Jesus was referred to as the carpenters son, and its a patronym, would this eliminate his brothers being older stepbrothers, according to the Protoevangelium of James? Richard Bauckham, for example, says, The word adelphi, hes an eminent New Testament scholar, need not mean full sister. Make an Appointment Good day, Trent. Jesus does not rebuke her. When Mary declared God, my savior. In Luke 1:47, she understood that Jesus was the savior to grant repentance and forgiveness of sins, in Acts 5:31 and in Titus 2:9-11, which included her own. And so to say, who believed the exact same way that I believed? None of that is required by Greek grammar or what the verses say. And Id like my little mini rebuttal, very quick points, Matt, that is a topic for another debate. As I said before, thats not what were debating today. While scripturally affirming Jesus is the son of God, they contradict scripture by claiming that Jesus is Michael the archangel, because scripture affirms Michael is a created being while Jesus is the eternal deity. Instead, these manuscripts contain the deuterocanonical books, and they correspond to the Church councils of this era such as Hippo and Carthage that also affirmed the inspiration of these books. Link in the following ways my book, the Case for Catholicism, talking about salvation from threats this... 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