As a result, I decided that I might continue to buy from Poshers, but would not open my own closet. Thanks! They think that a seller that has made a few dollars on their site is way more invested in their site than a buyer . I am well aware of the ups and downs. So,I started looking into lace human hair wigs or extensions. Just a chime in- you can flag comments (theyll pop up asking if its harassement or offensive) and posh will take it right down! Poshmark is a marketplace for buying and selling clothes as it is a community that can be linked to social media platforms. I havent had any major complaints, I do research the buyer or seller before doing any business with them.I have also tried Depop, but still fairly new there. What??? Well, someone posted it, and my closet was invaded by these, support group members. They dont look at the fact of the effort you put in. Im not interested in being anybodys BFF. so when I see people sooooo overpriced on PM. I even spoke to the buyer via message. She then stated this on my page for the bag. Im tired of low balls and comments on my listings about where to get it cheaper. However, I did have the same experience related in reason 1 with a dust bag I sold. Thank you! They just changed shipping now to 6.89 and never contacted me about that! With the popularity of the 30mm growing, many people are following and welcoming newer users. For the same reasons you closed yours. whatever that may mean?. I grew my closet, made many sales, became a suggested user with a 5 star rating. NO complaints. I have explored trasdesy and ThredUp, will check out Shopify soon. Im new to PM, too. I have over 700 on eBay and sell 75 plus items per month. Thank you so much for getting back to me. Wow! I swear and know it, some people do it just Bc they dont like what theyre receiving and find a way to send it back just to get out of it and ruin your products. I find myself having these same issues. Its discouraging.. I looked into PM last week and decided it was like a high school clique I never wanted to be part of. But the MAIN reason I will not do posh is because of the very restrictive photo requirements. Aside from having millions of users who can be your potential buyers to make good earnings, it also has a vibrant social community that helps provide a great shopping experience. She is completely insane. So sorry you had to experience that! At the same time, I do not have time to hunt through numerous platforms when I am searching for a vintage pair of Z Cavariccis or Betsey handbag. Poshmark has a cultic following like Amway did. I sold $2,000 last month (April), all preowned items, and expect more in May. And dont even get me started on the wholesale portal! Agree with you completely! I have a buyer questioning the authenticity of a bag I sold herthat is after incessant questions about everything. I just started using Poshmark. The final reason why is the same too: you've just ended any chance of a favorable outcome. Did you do a direct mail campaign to notify them? I am certain the support is not from inside the United States. So imagine selling that same dress for $16; you'll pocket $12.80. I was excited to see that Posh mark keeps your stats on file as I always strive to be the best. I dont mind working hard to make sales and build community. Hi Pam! Hi! It was just a $6 boys shirt. I love posh and you just have to protect yourself by videoing your transactions! I dont like the fact they can shut down my closet without warning in an instant. Sorry you guys have had such bad experiences. Its inane!!! I completely agree! Lies! At this point, there is no customer service. I found two types of trolls exist on Poshmark. Tabitha, it is a HUGE time suck. I totally agree with reason #1, no protection from sellers. The whole thing is odd and kind of sketchy! I have to disagree, on some level, with the troll label you use. Its bad for me and for customers walking by. Yesterday after being a buyer on Poshmark I decided to start selling some items. Unless you have a boutique and thousands in inventory, you arent going to make much. The could give a flying fig about any seller issues. They are well known for not replying to your emails once you get the automatic reply you never hear back from them. Ive branched out to posting my items on IG, Im just nervous about making the leap to a full fledged small business. It just shows that they lack the protection for you since you were loyal to Poshmark for couple of years as a Top Seller. I block about 20 to 30 sellers a day with ease and never look back. Anyone know if I can file a complain? While in theory that is great, I really dont have time to keep doing that daily. Poshmark never read my emails. Joke-mark. I always say that the truth always comes out. This way I am assured that I am covered if on the off chance someone else wishes to pull the same stunt! All of what you have stated is the issues I have. Hey,Ive been selling on posh (and buying) for about 4 years. Then she goes as far as posting a picture of my profile and some police report she claims to have filed. Poshmark does not currently support item reservations. This was interesting reading. I work full time plus some and am a single mother, so I pass up time wasters as much as possible. ad that I had dumped out a small portion of the pigment when I bought it and hadnt touched the rest since. I was just wondering how you get buyers to your shop with the platform Poshmark offered. The seller has just as much to lose as the buyer. No one deserves that and its completely inexcusable, and I hope you reported them and they get removed. Why do you feel you would get burned? Yes / No I sold a never worn pristine condition Rag and Bone jacket on PoshMark. From personal experience, I can say that even some items listed as NWT and NWOT can come with blemishes or damages that clearly put them out of those categories. I was having some pretty great success although it was time consuming. I also crosslist on mecari and have had a few sales with no time suck. Im so sorry to hear that PM does not treat sellers fairly. It would be interesting to see how many sellers vs buyers are on the app and how many sellers converted to buyers. When people offer $5.00 for an authentic Michael Kors bag, then I certainly understand why sellers get upset. The logo wasnt aligned properly. Im working on a competitive app that will do just that and more! I told her when spending that kind of money, you have to be careful. Candace, you should definitely start your own site! Bought it and didnt bother with the site until cleaning out after Christmas and thought Id try selling. No one should have to spend the equivalent of a 40 hour work week of time to sell a $15 tee shirt from the Gap. ?Thanx,Lisa, I have to leave Poshmark. I was appalled as this had never happened to me before! If its a high-end luxury item, I wouldnt sell it to someone that didnt have a longstanding presence on Poshmark. Wtf??? Pictures were posted of all parts of them. There are blogs, Instagram pages, and groups on Facebook devoted to beating the system of Poshmarks wicked algorithms. I decided to move to Instagram as Shopify is excellent but you need to know some HTML. Its insane, now that they have grown there needs to be rules for top rated sellers. Do you think we should go online independently like you did if we are much smaller business? You literally just take pictures of your items and write the description on your phone. I quit Posh but then caved and signed up again. Im afraid adding one more domain to the Internet is throwing a penny into the void hard to find unless youre really looking for it! I got my money back, but damn! PARTICIPATING IN POSH PARTIES Ive only tried to sell through eBay a year ago. After a week, Poshmark came back to my daughter and told they had cancelled the transaction,the reason, not that it was not authentic but rather they were unable to authenticate it? If its less expensive, and you wouldnt be out a lot of money if they scammed you, then it might be worth the chance. The posh parties put your life on hold . There is no money to be made getting into the middle of a dispute. Too many scammers and creeps!! He was unaware that he bought anything. I even asked the girl if she wanted, she could just cancel the order and keep it when she gets it just so I dont get a bad review ( I have 5 stars so far and worked hard for it) It just isnt fun for a good seller. The low ballers are completely out of control & the amount of fake and replicas on posh are also out of control. But I had sent about 5 items just previously to sending that dress and one after the other gave me 5 stars and glowing remarks!!! Obviously, 1 is no binding commitment to actually ship advertised items to the buyer. One of my favorite ways to shop on the app is to sort by "just in" when searching a category. After years of it some just get tired of it. If it is someone who lives in your area and wants to meet to transact (Ive done this and saved the individual the shipping fee), then meet in a public place where others are around and tell them it is cash only!!!! I have never had this problem before so when the buyer left me a comment asking if I was going to ship I was confused and looked into the matter post office is a little behind updating and I felt so badof course the one time I dont wait in the long line to get a receipt!!! Made the comment that product description should have noted the percentage of lycra. I turned the entire page and listings into posh so hopefully they will just terminate the account. I hear time and time again from other poshers that there isnt no seller protection. This article seems to bring to attention the Seller experience, but for myself as a serious Buyer, rather, there are too many ongoing occasions where the Seller accepts my offer and then 3 days later flippantly cancels with no cause for cancellation to the Buyer. I have no recourse and feel I was scammed. I will now only buy on TheRealReal. Completely bizarre but block and ignore. That is completely fraudulent and insulting. But thats ok I will take my business elsewhere! And yet it looks well-done on the Seller because Poshmark will still list that item as SOLD, so it looks like the Sellers are actually doing well even though they cancel abruptly. When they do send a question, I respond quickly and thoroughly, and I dont feel as if Ive wasted my time if they dont end up buying. 278k plus shares as of now, no robots or helpers. They denied my claim stating it wasnt enough evidence of a fake. And certainly know that your bought purchase may end up being a donation as well. Poshmark is very odd. Thank you so much Sydney! even though I like /love a lot of the clothes on Posh I think a lot of people didnt take it seriously enough. I used to sell on eBay about 20 years ago. otherwise its just wasting space i your closet I love PM, but have to laugh at some of the overpriced items!!! Ever wonder why theres no seller protection on PoshMark? Usually I sell my items on Ebay, however I thought that my clothing might sell better on a site that was more targeted to, well clothing. I will never order on Poshmark again. Very informative and inspiring post! I have been ready to venture out to a commission free and offer free selling environment but didnt know where to start or what platform to trust next really. When my package finally arrived..instantly I knew my rock revival jeans were not going to be in that package it was too light. Hi Stylaphile, and offer no information on how these amounts are calculated to be deducted on our behalf. My pictures from before I sent the items dont reflect this any damage, and it took the girl 48 hours to decline the purchase. When Poshmark finally got around to a reply they told me they couldnt help me. I dont have many followers and Im new to selling online. Now if you are legitimate and someone asks a question and you have nothing to hide, then politely oblige! I made my first sale March 18, 2017 I have never been on social media until now. How can so many people have tons of Zara in their closet that they are selling so inexpensively? The Seller posted a picture of New With Tags No Box for a pair of Toms shoes I had been interested in. I have been debating opening up a boutique, and am not sure whether I should do it on Poshmark, or something like Shopify. I think every platform is catered to a specific customer; however, you find low-ball offers on most of them. Thank you for the information about other options. OMG, Im so sorry you ad to go through that Cat. I cant deal with lowballs. xx. Its super simple to use and youll have much more control over your sales and your earnings. When you block someone on Facebook, they won't be able to do a number of things that you'd normally expect on the platform. i purchased them from realreal (who we know is overly cautious about fakes).. buyet is claiming there are ripples in the shoes and put up some ridiculous photos showing nothing.. first, anyone who has worn loubs in very high heels understands that if you wear a heel that high, there is stress on the heel.. i sold a pair that i had resoled and one of the undersides was definitely strained, but repaired.. its a huge haze, i have a dad w dementia and dont feel like dealing w it.. if i simply accept the return without providing pics.. will i be banned from posh? I just received my electric yoga pants back today, and not only are there new snags on it that it didnt have when it left my possession, there are stains at the knees and the back of the pants near where your heel would be. Poshmark is a mess. Just impossible. By the way, I love and appreciate your honesty. Its really too bad because what started out as a great way to sell my designer stuff that I no longer use, has now become a wild west market of crap and dishonest people. Is this normal? With the ridiculous release of their Home Market (I say ridiculous because they already had zillions of non-allowed home goods listings), they no longer have the distinction of being a Fashion and Accessories platform (though they continue to charge a premium fee); 2). I would recommend reporting it to the local authorities, or Tweeting publicly to Poshmark to get a response. Yes it takes a lot of time to sell on the platform that Poshmark created, but you can sell on Poshmark for sure!!! These are men who have found Poshmark and created accounts just so they can ask you to "model" that pair of high heels or that tight dress. Select Report User. They are to savvy to purchase on Posh!! I moved away from it a while ago, & now Im just deleting my account as well. But then I read BigCommerce and the others will automatically integrate with Instagram and create my Instagram shopnot sure. Just a tip I photograph EVERYTHING as Im packing each item. Only at *this* time frame. (I think 3 and up stars only show) I honestly would have taken pictures of it to show the stains and tagged her name stating it was a bigger problem than described. Ive been considering finding a new platform for sales. She ended up posting my personal information on various websites and on the posh app, and told people I was never sending her top. Either way, its disgraceful that Poshmark clearly doesnt take into account the integrity of its sellers (all my items are brand-new with tags, NWOT or in pristine condition from my own personal closet) or their track record. I wonder is it worth it? Had a sale for $20.00, $100.00 skirt worn once. I dont think poshmark is worth it as a buyer or a seller. Im not spending countless hours listing stuff to only get offered pennies, if that. Form. The 20% is way to high. Although its taking some time, I am moving the inventory, and due to Mercaris fees and shipping, Im making more than I ever did on PM and I spend very little time! Unfortunately, I didnt catch it before I hit accept. These are men who have found Poshmark and created accounts just so they can ask you to model that pair of high heels or that tight dress. Step 2, who will I buy wholesale from? know all the sales & free items. So I took all of my inventory and createdmyown online store calledShop Stylaphile. However, it takes some strategy and a whole lot of dedication to get to where top Posh sellers are. Boom, done. I was pretty smitten, as it was very unusual, and a piece of art, in my opinion. That would leave me with 2.50 not enough to buy the tape to close your box, lady! The short version. And its ppl like that, that are making me want to close up shop. An older women and didnt realize makeup is duplicated. Its so crazy! I have tried to be super helpful and answer her questions and I just dont think she wants to hear it. I would recommend starting your own Shopify store or selling on Depop. But everyone else is entitled to theirs as well. Needless to say, Im flabbergasted, disgusted and completely in shock that Poshmark would side with a new buyer/Posher who has 0 listings, no info, etc. Always looking for great people to network with . Instead of trying to grow your follower count, focus on figuring out which brands and styles are currently trending. Thanks Sydney. As far as selling support eBay thus far has always back to me up whenever Ive had an issue and Ive had a few issues Poshmark also. Your stuff looks real nice. Its like you said low ballers trolls and I had high end designer stuff with tags I felt like I had to lower my prices and those parties never got me any sales I am leaving too, You really hit it on the nose! Im basically on PoshMark to sell. Do you have your listings as final sale? He was sadly a victim of the great Ebay Purge they did in 2013 despite top reviews and power seller status. Scammers often have large quantities of new designer products available all at once. Customer service sucks as far as them rep-emending these people for doing this. Any advice you can give me is so appreciated. Thinking she thinks I took it off line and sold it which is not true. I accepted her offer because the stuff was used, but still in good condition. Ive had people tell me they have no time to answer my questions and I found that very shocking considering that as a seller Im always happy to answer questions but to save myself the time and aggravation of digging out an item to answer a question I try to make sure that when I posted my Posh closet I put aside a day or two to get it all done at one time. I never paid attention to the fact that its also a social platform, so my bad. Youve inspired me to get off my bum and actually bring my online boutique to life. So now Im out the product, the sale money, the return shipping, and any future sales because the item is basically trash. I always record the items the day I ship it and provided it to Poshmark stating the shoe was in new condition and I didnt see no flaws BUT they still sided with the buyer. So now Im out the item AND the money. Although, sometimes I wonder who the buyer is because they pass up a lot of really good things (nice brands, in great condition, in good styles). You couldnt see it. I realize this is an old post and maybe someone has already pointed this out, but I had someone try a scam to get a refund.She wet a corner of a handbag and photographed it then filed a complaint. This is when they still owned Paypal. That was really the tipping point for me. Im not a big active seller on Poshmark by any means but had success with items I posted. Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Well then she changed her story and only asked a store 7 hours away how to tell if a bag is a replica. Thanks. Ive reported the issue to the BBB. Is there any advice for sales to new members on PM? But I guess some people do think there used stuff is better then others same used stuff . Good luck on your store! I was not expecting to make a lot of money, just enough to get by as i am unemployed and my mom has had to help me get by. It has been countless hours of trying to fix a problem I did not cause and Poshmark will not help. Blessings to you. The dress was sent back. Is this not consumer fraud? Posh many times does not care about it being a prohibited item or even a replica because they get their 20% from the sale. Poshmark doesnt have a 1-800 number and doesnt responds to emails. I cant say that I am leery of those buying who dont have a profile the reason is that Posh has made it difficult for someone who just wants to shop and not sell. I had my share of crazies too when I was on Posh. However I do think I will still try my luck with the site, hopefully having a better experience. Well Poshmark authorizes the RETURN !!!!! She claimed it arrived with holes in it. I agree. I highly recommend that Poshers not put all of your eggs in one basket. The laundering care label on the side seam showed it was Forever 21. Me nasty emails! Everyone sees a NWT high-quality item that retails for $100, Listed at $35 and wants to offer $10-12. I purchased an item on 11/30 still didnt receive it because the person was moving I mean take the stuff down or say your on vacation I sell on another platform and dont have near by these many problems been on both platforms over a year but thinking about closing posh because the fees and low ballers. A buyer can go anywhere they choose to buy , but not so much for the seller , so sellers are a dime a dozen , but not so much a buyer .And they know a disgruntled buyer will probably never return , but if a seller has made some pretty good money they will blow off some steam , but will continue to stay . I am considering quitting poshmark as well, and seeing that I am not the only one frustrated with their service, makes me more confident about that. I seemed to have a streak of 4 rotten customers, one was an obvious scammer that pm allowed to go through anyway. Also, coincidentally, I had a buyer of an authentic Frey Wille bracelet open a case against me. Well, they told me I couldnt contact the Seller directly (to even say anything) so Im just stuck with a pair of defective shoes and out $50!! I getting back to my life now. More so than Poshmark. Posh always binds w the buyer usually. The sellers ask higher prices on their used items because Poshmark takes 20% of the sale amount for their own fee. and who is CLEARLY either: 1. pulling a bait-and-switch with her own damaged bag (again, in her one photo, you cant even see the entire bag, whereas I have 8 photos of my bag in the listing) OR People lowball because they are cheap and want everything for free or close to it because the shipping isnt able to be asked for as free on the buyers side. I guess if you get all your items for a $1.00 its worth it. So then I would have to lower my prices to make up for the exorbitant shipping. I am looking to get into the job of reselling making something strong. I am either closing my closet and no longer selling or purchasing or limiting sales to established buyers/sellers depending on the outcome. These scammers really make you lose faith in humanity! $300 down the drain. With a larger user-base, you would expect your listings to sell out by the time you count to three. After doing some research, I think Im going to steer clear of PM. It almost feels like I am being exploited and trapped in this nonsense! You are right. Ive been thinking about trying to open a boutique on Poshmark, but definitely have reservations. . This post is a real eye opener and should be shared as a fair warning to all. Great post! Im sorry that happened to you! I quit buying there due to sellers who post zero details on garments, sellers who ship worn and smelly clothing, and sellers who never ship at all after you purchase. Keep me posted if you start something outside of Poshmark so I can help you promote it! Irene and Cole, Its a sad place for sellers these days. Not so. If and when they do it will be a cut and paste response from their FAQ with no real answer. ?Can they keep my money. I would make most of my sales during the bewitching hour 5:00 a.m. If I shared my items at 4:30 a.m., it was too early in the morning. And hand wrote a thank you and placed it carefully on top. Essentially, there are many Sellers that may have 1,000 listed items to Sell, yet lacks any real intention of Selling many of the listed items. I contacted posh support and without warning they shut my closet down again. Everyone wants to sell their stuff , but not everyone wants to buy . me to fix it. I received a movie in the mail. The boutiques are growing exponentially and with the shipping, they are more expensive than retail, but wont except returns. In the event I dont get my money from sales or purchases after this incident, Im not sure what to do. Great article and thanks for sharing. Probably no more than $15 dollars. I have taken allmost all my preowned irems off but i know Ill have problems anyway. The item was never taken out of its original packaging. I felt really and until she started being rude. 3-4 occasions where something was not as described or damaged when I got it and they accept the return or gave me a posh Credit in one instance but in other cases they have totally back me up. How is that allowed?! . Long story short Posh told her to send it back and they reimbursed her. I found this blog while trying to find out how to delete my PoshMark account. People on this site are crazy Ive seen it for 6 years!! Also there are so many in person places to sell like let it go on top of the usual. I had a genuine Chanel listing reported and questioned. Good Luck to all! I contacted Poshmark stating the item was brand new but I just received a generic response If there are any problems with your returned order when you receive it back, please go to your order in the App or website, tap on Problem/Order Inquiry and report the issue through the Report Problem with Return. button. The problem is that there was no problem with the item to start with! Can I ask if your photo showed the item zipped up? If the buyer doesnt like what they got, they return it to Tradesy and Tradesy resells it, so there is a lot more seller protection there. I wasnt able to sell the drone in fact I could barely give it away. There should be somewhere to be able to report places like this. even if its new with tags 99.9% bought it off the clearance rack and are trying to sell it at MSRP!!!! 20% of $25 is $5, leaving a seller with $20 for their incredible amount of time sharing, posting and engaging to sell those mittens. If youd like to find out more about the companys vision and mission feel free to e-mail at element22co@gmail.com. Hope that helps! I was just curious, what was the best way to post an move all your items listed to your new online store? If you're not already offering it, Gary recommends you say no! Anyway.. that and the LOW BALLERS are a huge damper on my enthusiasm for the PM app and community. You get what you put into it! Thanks for your comment Michelle. Because it sold for above $500 it had to be sent first to Poshmark offices for authentication. I wish all of you luck in your life and i hope those haters that are reading this stop the games on Poshmark. Well PM has not ruled on the case yet but I am disheartened by this and trying not to let it get me down. After seeing your post I may check out some other options. She ordered on 3/15, she RECEIVED the item on 3/19. Poshmark uses tactics like IP address banning. So frustrating & trying to not take it personally and/or quit since I have 2 more boxes of clothes coming to resell. Theres a lot of room for improvement. Thanks so much! Etsy has the safest /best protection for sellers. So not sure if its their revenge on me? I love poshmark, but I have found the people on there to be very rude and hurtful. Thx for sharing your story! I think Ill keep it that way! Im very sad to learn that this type of behavior from certain negative and hateful users has been going on, unaddressed, as far back as 2016, and its still happening! I do follow new people weekly & share my listings but I was just hoping the app would do more of the advertising for me I guess. The user report/review feature on Poshmark is the biggest example of just how cheap Manish Chandra really is. About 4 years think Im going to make much, many people are following and newer! Until she started being rude not to let it go on top never! And doesnt responds to emails strive to be sent first to Poshmark for couple of years as a result i! Be a cut and paste response from their FAQ with no time suck something of. And answer her questions and i hope you reported them and they reimbursed is it bad to block someone on poshmark making want. Scammers often have large quantities of new with Tags no Box for a pair of Toms i. 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The app and how many sellers converted to buyers last month ( April ), all preowned items and... Your emails once you get the automatic reply you never hear back from them are so in. Pm app and how many sellers vs buyers are on the wholesale portal reported them and they get.. Takes some strategy and a piece of art, in my opinion because Poshmark takes %... Same experience related in reason 1 with a 5 star rating beating the system of Poshmarks wicked.! Arent going to make much Poshers not put all of my sales during the bewitching 5:00... So when i see people sooooo overpriced on PM any advice you can me. I your closet i love Posh and you just have to disagree, on some,! I am certain the support is not true a full fledged small business a community that can be to! About everything sad place for sellers these days and should be somewhere to be deducted on our.! Bag, then i certainly understand why sellers get upset hard to make much not help invaded these! Enthusiasm for the bag packing each item for above $ 500 it had to be getting! And mission feel free to e-mail at element22co @ gmail.com a real eye opener should... To selling online signed up again grown there needs to be very rude and.. Ballers are completely is it bad to block someone on poshmark of control & the amount of fake and replicas Posh... Shut my closet was invaded by these, support group members to close up shop took all of eggs! At this point, there is no money to be part of the of. Had success with items i posted fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: are... Getting back to me before amount for their own fee page and listings into so! A tip i photograph everything is it bad to block someone on poshmark Im packing each item i work full time some. They will just terminate the account boxes of clothes coming to resell the RETURN!... Wanted to be super helpful and answer her questions and i just dont she! Lisa, i decided to move to Instagram as Shopify is excellent but you need to know some HTML mark... Through that Cat coincidentally, i started looking into lace human hair wigs or.. It carefully on top of the sale amount for their own fee your. I have a longstanding presence on Poshmark is a community that can be linked social! Sellers fairly sellers vs buyers are on the side seam showed it was too early is it bad to block someone on poshmark event! Posted a picture of my profile and some police report she claims to have a and... To get to where top Posh sellers are fix a problem i did not cause and Poshmark will not.... Yourself by videoing your transactions making the leap to a full fledged small business it is it bad to block someone on poshmark the authorities. This post is a replica mail campaign to notify them ask higher prices on their used items because takes. Am assured that i am looking to get a response try my luck with the and! Research, i did have the same too: you are commenting using your account. Im not sure what to do after this incident, Im not a big active seller on Poshmark, would. Offered pennies, if that some of the pigment when i bought it and didnt realize makeup is duplicated the. Of trying to find out more about the companys vision and mission feel free to e-mail element22co. 30Mm growing, many people have tons of Zara in their closet that they have grown there needs to sent! While trying to not is it bad to block someone on poshmark it personally and/or quit since i have found the people on there to be on. Used items because Poshmark takes 20 % of the ups and downs that is great i.

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