I think thats true for some and not others. But then, Im just The Crazy Kid, and hes always been the Sweet Little Angel. This has not only damaged women but also affected men, like my husband, who looked up to Bill Hybels as a positive role model. http://www.dianelangberg.com/2018/04/dear-church/, Dee, my Sister Nancy Beach sent me this today. I outlined above the typical reasons people dont mention uncomfortable incidents with someone they trust or admire. God is a title. The Devil is destroying yet another church. Steve Carter (Hybels hand picked teaching padtor) does not have the best reputation either. That is hard to deal with. You were easily manipulated by an evil expert (especially with children). @ okrapod: That said, this is all so tragic. I sat on a committee for two years which did nothing but brainstorm ways to increase retention rates and decrease progression time through our programsour biggest nightmare was the student who didnt get connected to some group, we knew they were likely to get lonely, drop out, go back to their hometown and become a settled-in townie. Just wondering??? Ambien or the Devil it is always Something/one Elses Fault. I was so sorry to learn about all of this yesterday and Willow Creek Church. Thats the thing; note the commonality of the golden parachute disembarking in these cases. I dont know if you have any experience with megachurch staffs or not. Jesus takes care of the harvest. Why? Prayer Requests Thanks Erp that is *very* helpful information! Read the Bible Dee. They share two children named Shauna Niequist who is a bestselling Christian author and Todd Hybels Who Is Lynne Hybels Lynne is the co-founder of Willow Creek Community Church and author of Nice Girls Don't Change the World and a columnist for Sojourners magazine. 2 comments not allowed. We are all sinners and we all fail. Yep and the email deal reminds me of someone else. I have long been leery of Hybels (and other mega church pastors) because these guys are basically Christian rock stars and are treated accordingly. 1 comment about arms @ Julie: 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Some will sadly never make the decision to follow Christ. Its the same thing my university wrings their hands over. WC is Hybels no matter how much they protest. He needs nothing, needs none of us, but He loves us and makes us a part of His plan. Position? there was no hostile work environment attached. The statement was wrong in every way and since there is a great possibility that the group is very concerned and just seeking truth. My bad. Thanks, Futurist Guy. Should I be worried? Certainly does not sound like the sort of objective, information-seeking statement one would expect from an informational meeting. And us adults have to learn not to be so easily snookered by evil experts masquerading as wonderful people and pass red flags along to children. No one walks away unascathed. When this discovery of improper behavior was taken to the senior pastor he aparrently refused to listen. I dont know why he does these things. READ MORE: Brian Scotto Net Worth Books Some of his published books are: The Power of a Whisper: Hearing God, Having the Guts to Respond; Too Busy Not to Pray: Slowing down to Be with God; Simplify: Ten Practices to Unclutter Your Soul; That isnt what I was talking about and I should have clarified. It is clear to me that God did not want this hidden any longer. ..I know my sheep and they know me .. He came to die for His sheep and he knew us before we were born. But, I seriously doubt your using scripture as a club will shame, convince or condemn many here. I think they all have the same m.o. Unfortunately, this particular scandal not only impacts specific Willow Creek pastors or employees it impacts the body of Christ and the thousands of people seeking to know Jesus. The sheer resources at these (mostly) mens disposal. Nancy, like Vonda, believed her experience with Bill was an isolated incident. I am disappointed at the congregation who gave the standing ovations but they havent been told all the facts. Brads comments only serve to make me wonder how many people worship Hybels instead of God. It means wearing Gods name like a banner (CHRIST-ian Leader) and then doing terribly ungodly things that represent Him poorly. As with many couples, there were times we couldn't imagine making it through another year, let alone another decade or two. In 1974, Bill Hybels married Lynne while he was still a youth pastor. I felt something was amiss with the email story when I first heard about it. Now that these accusations are coming out in the open, some women have doubts that the skeptics will acknowledge the body of evidence about his behavior, and confront their own preconceived beliefs. Rags to Riches to Rags in three generations. If we are not to judge, why would there be a list of sins in the Bible, including in the NT, with an admonishment to punish people via church discipline. When you read it, I think you might as well. If there is a 40 year pattern of behaviors, it doesnt matter. Once, while Mr. Hybels's wife, Lynne, and. Anti-semitic ? Or is this site simply about wholesale condemnation. "Willow Creek is known for its health and vitality as a faith community," he said. It just did not need to be a science or a manufactured event. What I see here is a whole lot of wholesale condemnation. I believed, everyone believed, that he was one of the good guys, committed to fighting for womens rights, committed to our marriage, and to the women he worked with. And I go back to one of my earlier assertions about celebrity. So what favor did he do you (that you did not tell me about) that made him think that you owed him? And it shall come to pass that, like as I have watched over them to pluck up and to break down and to overthrow and to destroy and to afflict, so will I watch over them to build and to plant, saith Jehovah. (Jeremiah 31:28), @ Davis and Natasha: It took her 40 years(!) I did, and he asked me to come up for a leadership talk, and told me to come alone. It took her a long time to get up the courage to say enough was enough. Bill was asked about his special arrangement with I.T., where his emails are permanently deleted on a frequent and regular basis. Little children they say do not like to be hugged by the old people so I dont do it. Only saying he did that for women sounds creepier, but he actually did that for everyone he was mentoring. Whew, those poor WC members have been exposed to some characters! And you re-evaluate. He didnt seem to follow Yahwehs rules much anyway. You be the Mugu; I be the Master! Really? A cheap way to expand. @ Headless Unicorn Guy: Hybels condemned himself. He may or may not have been directly abusing his own wife, but he surely was abusing the women in his church who he targeted. Given the name Cephas, walking on water (for a time), given the keys of the kingdom and the charge to strengthen the brethren and feed the Lords sheep, speaking out on Pentecost after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, sharing the Gospel with Cornelius and the Gentiles, and everything else listed in Acts 1-15. It was always funny to me (sad really) how when Bill Hybels prayed for/about something no matter what it was, that according to Hybels God always answered him immediately or within days. Little nobodies dont stand a chance. For further flow of events, see I, Claudius, Dune, and Game of Thrones. Its very complicated. I would not attend a church where I knew the pastor behaved like that. Wow!!! Just without a Christianese coat of paint. The Kingdom of God is not massive corporate structures and clever corporate game plans. Nothing to see here folksmove along! Lets just call it a deviation from the mainstream Christian view of hell. Its hard to tell what I havent read. I do, however, see how the dastardly could try and use the physical emotional responses to size up or groom a potential victim. If she ever blew the whistle on his evil-doing, he had prepared in advance the excuse he would give to the elders in his church: I had taken Ambien! The gossip inspectors have arrived. Ive been wondering if church leaders with abusive pastors have become convinced (or have convinced themselves) that, 1) Sexual misconduct is somehow rampant among charismatic pastors Adults need to Stop being snookered by totalitarian niceness. Willow Creek Community Church initially started as a high school ministry but grew over time to become one of the biggest Churches in the United . For example, I have no problem with a man eating dinner in a public restaurant with a woman who is not his wife . On Tuesday, Illinois megachurch pastor Bill Hybels announced that he's resigning amid sexual-misconduct allegations made by church members and employees. Like you, quite a few of us have spent years studying it deeply. I am an infrequent commenter here, but have been following the WW for years. Only much later did I recall, for instance, my pastor condemning those gossip bloggers who were trying to tear down the church which is how I first found this blog. Even the innocent in Israel lived with the ensuing upheaval. I think I said in another thread, there are hugs and there are hugs and we can generally tell the difference. And to think that Willow Creek notables have been hanging out with him! Got any other people of substance who would vouch for you? This slavish devotion to a leader or organization is scary and given the size and influence of this church, what are they capable of? No amount of marketing spin can change the fact that if these allegations are true, and they now appear quite credible, that you were following a fraudand quite naturally, are now acting like one yourself. I pray every day for you-know-who to be able to find a way out of teaching which did not result in poverty. So done. To all those women that have been psychologically damaged, what a needless tradegy. Sounds like wing ding anti Semitic tripe. Like the real estate/mortgage broker years ago who the day before the search warrant came down, backed up an industrial shredder van to their office for an all-day shred-everything party. I have been doing some background checking into this. After all, women are not little children who have to run to daddy for every little bump up. Thus, the cottage industry that often accompanies or is an integral part of their ministry (sic) glides on, and the supposed spiritual.authority who is moving on is positioned to escape consequences and true rebuke. When youre the victim of something creepy, such as abuse, suggestive sexual behavior or private narcissistic rage or whatever ugly thing from a pastor who holds himself up as a paragon of virtue, people often feel embarrassed at having been involved in it, even if they had nothing to do with the wrongful actions. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-met-willow-creek-pastor-20171220-story.html, Perhaps someone with computer/tech background can explain how these emails can exist, but not be read, as the news report says . Are you so sure its the devil? I do. At least you know what they are upfront . They also have two children together, whose name we don't know. Who is Bill Hybels? 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart. 20 Where is the one who is wise? A very misunderstood view of redemption; repentance and forgiveness is taught out there especially in seeker Megas. You tell your kids That was wrong. As this onion is being peeled back, it really gives us an insight into life at the top tier of a megachurch. However it can also be decentralized and setup so that only the sender and receiver can read and no backdoor (and even they cant read if they lose the keys). Thanks for sharing the link. If you (the church at Ephesus) do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. Rev 2:7. Even worse, you can be shamed/shuned, and called lukewarm for your honest questioning of what you experienced/think. Yet, if this person is free to say what was done by J Ortberg and offer her (non-intimidated, threatened) perspective on it, how can she conflate that with others coming forward to offer a perspective on their experience? (That last one is pure fun in a mega church because you have to trust the elders/boards. In the end the price has already been paid by Jesus and its Only By Grace that we enter.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hv72Q23lIp0. of Poor Poor Innocent Victim of Wicked Stepmother, then hit the detonator (after those several years of setting the charges) at his own wedding, when he invited her (and the rest of the family). @ Davis and Natasha: Menu. The Buckner Show has been cancelled; we now return this time slot to the regularly-scheduled Wartburg Watch.. * Now, it all falls into place: Wow, Im not the only person this happened to. This was real. This was wrong.. May God raise up more people like Josiah who tore down the high places and every high thing that exalted itself against the knowledge of God until Jesus becomes the only thing worshipped in the church. Okay, now is my choice to reference David. Ive experienced it alsomultiple times. You are just nailing it. I believe the world is far more interested in Christians who know they are sinners and deal with it as opposed to Christians who are actively trying to keep the sin thing on the down low. @ Jack: How they must love what they do! Some more publicly than others. Dee, I was wondering how you got him to do that gig. Barb, I must say, you have this amazing gift of being able to cut through a persons (premeditated) bullpoo. While WW can be messy, I think most poster here just want honesty, transparacy, and protection/respect of the weaker ones. Indeed. Because you put so much trust and admire a leader like Hybels, your first instinct is to dismiss anything off about them. @ dee: She thanks you too. Nothing more. Why would we expect a follower of Hybels to be different from Hybels? And worse, to make rock stars of them? I worked for a large pharmaceutical firm. I agree. Now, you should go back and read about victims and try to learn why this open letter hurts real victims. Sometimes theyre letting you know who theyve really been followingand who they havent been. Add a spiritual plastic Jesus fish to the scenario above and its 10x easier to manipulate. Why? Bill Hybels opens his eyes at dawn, rolls out of bed and lands on his knees. I am going to add one further post that will be two pictures and then I will allow all these posts to stay for comment. BTW, when I confronted him publicly, his response wasnt, I didnt do it, but You wanted me to. A married man twice my age, I might add, who nobody liked. Im thankful they embraced egalitarianism and led the way with women in leadership. There are too many similarities between their stories. When was the last time you led someone to Jesus? Tell your sister that I am standing with her in spirit and in prayer. If someone thinks so, tell me how. I dont know if you have any experience with megachurch staffs or not. This was mishandled. Catherine-you are in permanent moderation. She had no way of knowing of other incidents and we now see why. Cant people be sincere and caring without all that? Bill did nothing wrong at all! I dont know how to respond to the letter. Keeping this in the forefront of out thoughts should help us from becoming disappointed when another pastor is caught. A seminary student molested a bunch of boys at my former church. A high five or handshake can do the same. Bill Hybels has stepped down. And thats how you end up with an entire institution being transformed in a little over two decades. So what does that say about what he thinks of me that he thinks he can help himself to my woman? Was it addressed and ignored by the elders? That should be shut down with extreme prejudicepun definitely intended. They were forced to buy the package and become little Creekers in order to try and stay in the game. Our job is to sow seeds. That is a huge red flag. This stemmed from a Gospel of Personal Salvation and ONLY Personal Salvation (everything else was All Gonna Burn) where the only thing God would ask on J-Day was How Many Souls Did YOU Save? and the numbers in your sales record would be all that determined your position and rank in Heaven. Women get to decide if they want to be touched or not, and oh he did not mean anything by should never even have to be brought into play-in the workplace. This caliber of leaders dont just stay quiet. No one I know here has a problem with redemption. Agreed that Ms. Walles claims arent relevant to the question of Mr. Hybels actions, although they do speak to a toxic, boundary-less culture where men were apparently not held to high standards and did not have clear guidelines that held them accountable. You have been wanting to run the ad and move on. Whether anyone associated with any of his accusers is a jerk or not, I fail to see the pointunless, of course, the point is to smear whoever accuses him so that people will think twice before bringing forth any more stories. Simul justus et peccator. (Spell check keeps changing it to percolator!). RE got to talking about guys grabbing a boobie feel with side hugs; she thinks it is pretty ubiquitous in the male population. Surely someone from the WCC trebuchet club could have found somebody better at weaving a tale. Having Church in your club title does not necessarily mean it is the Bride of Christ. I also freely admit to hugging my cat till she meows at me to let her down. Sometimes you have to look into the darkness in order to see that God is still present and at work. Lawrence Krauss is a famous atheist and liberal crusader and, in certain whisper networks, a well-known problem, according to author Peter Aldhous, in his article on *BuzzFeed*. Really? Lets go a little deeper. Im probably talking to the air, though, because hit-and-run scolds like you seldom have the courage to come back. So I hugged him. is lynne hybels still married to bill. At TWW, comments become a place of learning and exposure. Ok, So Nancy Ortberg was fondled, hugged, touched. It can happen. Kids will tell you straight up, but I kind of treat them like stray cats and let them come to me! There are evil people who look like good people. There is great peace in being able to say That action was wrong. and not have to decide Is he saved?. And it all comes cloaked in the name of the Christianity and the Church. Example, why did you agree in front of everyone to stay after everyone they all left,you idiot. So sad. The existence of an impartial documented history of 2 years worth of 1150 emails between Bill and the other woman is stark corroboration. No quid pro quo to substantiate. That doesnt mean people should be randomly hugging you for no reason, though. And his comment is A church? By your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned Jesus Matthew 12:37. I could go on and one, but my point is that serial abusers are very, very clever. However, for people like those profiled on this site who have fallen short in protecting those under their charge (say, by covering ups their own misdeeds and/or crimes or those of others) to reemerge in a place where they again wish to wield spiritual authority (by starting another ministry (sic) in which they assume spiritual leadership or selling books advising sheep on spiritual matters seeking funding from said sheep in each case) is massively troubling. I try to look for the patterns and tactics of the perps and their enablers. We can only judge actions. Too many missed opportunities to do the right thing. John Ortberg served (1994-2003) as teaching pastor at Chicagos Willow Creek Community Church. Whatever it is, its wrong-headed. Jude 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having mens persons in admiration because of advantage. @ Lydia: This is VERY common. Instead of turning the other cheek or choosing kindness in the midst of your disappointment, I see anger and a willingness to hurt other people. Weve seen all kinds of abuses from ministry leaders and time always reveals the truth. So both Nancy Ortberg and her husband wonderful teaching pastors stayed on the staff later resigned to pastor in California. This will sound horrible to some but I never understood the overall hug culture. Having been a nurse, I told him I found it rather odd that he was focusing on one of the more rare side effects, and that he brought it up to me at all. 1 Peter 4:8 Thats why it cant be measured in terms of numbers, and in the case of Graham and Hybels are likely massively inflated anyway, and again, they dont get the numbers credit in any event, because its not that simple, its an enormously complex process that leads anyone to this or that place where they hear a message that the Holy Spirit uses to tip them over the fence. May God raise up more people like Josiah who tore down the high places and every high thing that exalted itself against the knowledge of God until Jesus becomes the only thing worshipped in the church. 30 seconds, if it was really that long, is a very long time for a hug. He describes how skilled offenders select, set up, groom, offend against, re-groom and then re-offend against the woman/women they target. Thanks Dee. I dont know if that all makes sense. Cant people be sincere and caring without all that? As a victim-advocate and blogger, I feel isolated because of my time zone. He also told them this parable: Can the blind lead the blind? The trusting person is the dupe who was groomed to respond accordingly. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. Its their normal. BTW, one of the drawbacks with the current format is we dont even see recent comments from older threads. So call the best pastor you can, but the best pastor is the most Christ-like, not the most TV-ready. Publicado en 88000 . The student is not above the teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like their teacher. Did we demand transparency? Most common reaction in the world. In the meantime, Crossway is still publishing and selling C.J. But if true it is still not honorable behavior. It is the Spirits job to convict and change. Interesting, as it goes after comments (he said bad words) and some situations, offering a perspective, all engineered to shape the perspective regarding Hybels. This story involved a fourteen-year sexual affair. It comes out. There were people in the main office just outside the tutoring office where I worked with students. Those of us in the pews and on staff are at fault. They are fighting for Hybels. And what is important here is that authoritarian control, often gained through emotional, spiritual and or sexual abuse is frequently used to establish control and enable institutions to achieve whatever it is their true agendas are. The works of an evangelist is to call people to Jesus. There are plenty of decent good men/women preaching to people week after week who dont take ever advantage of being admired and believed. He is politically liberal, decrying sexism, racism, and the fear of people who are different, and is a vocal critic of Donald Trump. Married: Spouse: Lynne Hybels (m. 1974) Son/Daughter: Yes (Shauna Niequist and Todd Hybels) Earning: $95,000 : Net Worth: I developed this over the last 10 years in writing curriculum on addressing systemic abuse. Actually if the pastor or anyone is dealing with confidential matters (e.g., a member of the congregation is having a spiritual crisis or has a kid dying but doesnt want the general congregation to know[think back to the 1980s when many people shunned those with AIDS]) his or her email should be encrypted and his computers hard disk should be encrypted (and any backup encrypted). I do agree with you, however, that there is enough blame and there has been enough time and somebody should have done something long ago, if that is what you are saying. For the whole world-system, based as it is on mens primitive desires, their greedy ambitions and the glamour of all that they think splendid, is not derived from the Father at all, but from the world itself. (1 John 2:16 Phillips), And then theres this: Not surprising that you are getting off-colored comments from some WC members. His wife had done nothing wrong . As much as many hate reformed doctrine, there is much less of this particular error. Gossip! Mahaney books. In the last few months as this media storm has rained down confusion and . Bill Hybels stepped down. Excuse me? I asked my mom once why she endured physical abuse so long from my father, and she gave me similar answers. Really? I allowed links and discussion on Jodis open letter despite the fact that I found it insulting to true victims. Tysvm Dee. His third publisher, Zondervan, has not yet responded to inquiries. People have been had. Thank you for sharing your analysis of this! No one, from the janitor to the CEO, can be deemed off limits to the moral and ethical demands of respect, decency and appropriate behavior. Whatever it is, its wrong-headed. As we said in Old School D&D about 3rd-level spells, You can do a lot more damage with one Suggestion in the right place than a dozen Fireballs.. It was humbling for you, but there was nothing inappropriate about Bill trying to guide your whole self as an up and coming leader. Stunned, I finally slipped my arms up between us and pushed him away. Instead, we are the be faithful to our calling. Hybel's father was an entrepreneur in wholesale produce whose work ethic was the model for his son. Kick out the immoral/abusive pastors. http://www.dianelangberg.com/2018/04/dear-church/. Why the need to put pastors in a special untouchable category? The comments we disallow often have to do with abuse of victims along with some other things. @ AbuseCrusher: Lets do church. That is more unusual these days. I get it bothers you. Take look at what Paul says about this immoral situation. The new lead pastor discounts the claims of the betrayed and encourages the women of the church to believe differently. Bill also admitted that the woman alleging an affair had spent many nights at the Hybels home when Lynne was out of town. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote: Perhaps its just honest ignorance, perhaps its denial. Thats how this tends to work. I hope that someone who knows what they are doing is archiving all of the official statements and documents by Hybels and WC. Though Lynne had intended to become a social worker, she did not hesitate to commit her life to church ministry, convinced that God has given the local church a clear mandate to address the needs of "the whole person in the whole world." Of abuses from ministry leaders and time always reveals the truth between Bill the. Out thoughts should help us from becoming disappointed when another pastor is the Spirits job to convict change. 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